DangerCoughlin101
i dont like most people's poetry
Joined: Oct. 2008
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Now the entire air force can come out of the closet.
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"how can he be a vampire when he spends all that time in his coffin?"
"My common sense is tingling"
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VASS
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Joined: April 2002
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Most of the gay guys I know are in better shape than most soldiers.
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DAAVVIID BIILLMMAAASSS.... YEAH YEAH YEAH!
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violentgrind
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Joined: Dec. 2002
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i'd rather it spin in its grave
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NEW SITE!!!
www.konstphoto.com
flickr.com/photos/violentgrind
"Between pushing the envelope alittle too far and constantly having a prudent stick up your ass, i'm choosing the former have fun with the latter."
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DangerCoughlin101
i dont like most people's poetry
Joined: Oct. 2008
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straight men can serve openly in the navy
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"how can he be a vampire when he spends all that time in his coffin?"
"My common sense is tingling"
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vendettealouette
An egg; hard, and scrambled.
Joined: Oct. 2007
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| Quote (DangerCoughlin101 @ Dec. 20 2010,21:13) | | straight men can serve openly in the navy |
Man, the 70's were weird...
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Freshmaker
Defcon 2.8
Joined: Dec. 2006
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So...this guy doesn't believe that gays/lesbians are allowed to have their own opinions? People like him amuse me. I wonder what his position was on the Balkans in the early 90s where random bombing of Serbia stopped a genocide (which led to wonderful people doing wonderful things). I'd be curious to know his position on Darfur. Oh well.
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"I know I was born and I know that I'll die. The in between is mine" - Eddie Vedder (yeah...that's right...eddie vedder)
"And who the fuck is Sam Gursky?" - Big Jon from Chicago
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Matt the Knife
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Joined: May 2004
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| Quote (Freshmaker @ Dec. 20 2010,22:05) |
So...this guy doesn't believe that gays/lesbians are allowed to have their own opinions? People like him amuse me. I wonder what his position was on the Balkans in the early 90s where random bombing of Serbia stopped a genocide (which led to wonderful people doing wonderful things). I'd be curious to know his position on Darfur. Oh well. |
Pacifists are pacifists are pacifists. There were pacifists who protested World War II. People criticized Gandhi for going on hunger strikes to discipline his own followers into not using violence. Blacks lambasted King for vehemently disapproving of armed rebellion and then the left turned on him when he opposed direct/confrontational action against Vietnam. Ever get on a high horse about King or Gandhi being a pacifist? I'm not trying to put CA on that level. But I'm also not going to sit here while you imply that his outlook on this is anything less than 100% principled. I am not a pacifist, but if you genuinely are a queer pacifist, it seems entirely consistent and an efficacious strategy to oppose the repeal of "don't ask don't tell". If yr a principled queer pacifist, the fewer queers killing brown people for the State, the happier you are. What's more, it's not all that different than black activists who supported dodging the draft. What's truly hypocritical is pretending that gay have the right to go kill for the same government that refuses to grant them equal protection under the law or afford the same civil rights as straight folks. By all means, be as out of the closet and gay as you want as long as yr willing to kick in doors to huts in Waziristan then of course it's yr legally protected right to be a fag and be proud, but God forbid you walk into a courtroom and be a fag and demand to be married...that wasn't what we intended when we started giving a shit about granting you rights.
Queer killing Talbian=civil rights issue
Queer demanding the right to marry or to transfer health insurance to their partner=threat to American values.
Really Doug, where is the greater depth of hypocrisy/lack of principle?
EDIT: Also Doug, it seems yr big issues with CA's thing is that it is doggedly anti-reformist. Which is spot on, CA's a revolutionary. I tend to be sympathetic with yr outlook. Yeah, I'm totally okay with people killing other people to protect themselves from genocide. And if I believed that the international community didn't have ulterior motives (ie, the free market structural readjustment policies forcibly instituted in Balkan states that accepted UN peacekeeping forces) then I might be even more sympathetic. But that isn't the issue here. It's a thoroughly fallacious and disingenuous logical move to imply that by insisting on a revolutionary/anti-reformist pacifist stance and by refusing to submit, militarily or otherwise to a State system which does not great you basic civil rights and encourages a culture of violence against the marginalized group you are a member of is somehow the same thing as being an appeaser when it comes to genocide. If you look at the UN conventions on genocide, you could make an argument that the systematic attempt to marginalize, suppress, and eradicate gay culture which has been employed by hetero US society and the US government borders on an ACT of genocide in and of itself. I know that's a pretty radical opinion, but if you read what Lemke intended those genocide accords to be (accords to protect the rights and perpetuate the existence of threatened minorities and marginalized subgroups), gays have a very legitimate bitch.
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shameless self promotion:
www.myspace.com/matthewlandismusic
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bakunin
Yo, Big Corso
warn-1.gif
Joined: Sep. 2007
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| Quote (Matt the Knife @ Dec. 20 2010,23:26) | | Quote (Freshmaker @ Dec. 20 2010,22:05) |
So...this guy doesn't believe that gays/lesbians are allowed to have their own opinions? People like him amuse me. I wonder what his position was on the Balkans in the early 90s where random bombing of Serbia stopped a genocide (which led to wonderful people doing wonderful things). I'd be curious to know his position on Darfur. Oh well. |
Ever get on a high horse about King or Gandhi being a pacifist? |
i do, yeah
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Make a fast deal with the local elite, then substitute cash-crops where once grew wheat. Build a cycle of dependence on a starvation-diet. With food as a weapon, workers stay quiet. And multinational names have blood on their brands from taking an interest in misused lands.
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violentgrind
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Joined: Dec. 2002
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matt - while i do think it would have been nice to still have the excuse of being gay to get out of military service in case of a draft, the point is that having the same civil rights includes the rights you may not agree with as well, such as killing brown people in some faraway hole. its not like the people fighting for the repeal of DADT aren't the same people fighting for the legalization of gay marriage.
not all gays are pacifists and some want to join the military for any number of reasons, and they should have that right as long as straight people do as well. they also should have the right to receive all the benefits the military offers them (most of which they'll try to fuck you over about whether you are gay or straight or whatever, but thats a different topic...), instead of being dishonorably discharged and forced to pay back tens of thousands of dollars when their secret gets out.
allowing gays in the military is an important part of recognizing them as equal members of society, and can help lead to other legal measures and a general acceptance by society at large, or whatever part left of it that still doesn't agree. it was probably just as important when black soldiers were allowed to be integrated with white soldiers. in fact here's an article that talks about just that: http://www.history.army.mil/books/integration/iaf-fm.htm (i've only gotten as far as the foreword so far, but it seems to be making the same points)
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NEW SITE!!!
www.konstphoto.com
flickr.com/photos/violentgrind
"Between pushing the envelope alittle too far and constantly having a prudent stick up your ass, i'm choosing the former have fun with the latter."
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whoaman
die, die, die
Joined: Mar. 2008
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| Quote (bakunin @ Dec. 21 2010,04:22) | | Quote (Matt the Knife @ Dec. 20 2010,23:26) | | Quote (Freshmaker @ Dec. 20 2010,22:05) |
So...this guy doesn't believe that gays/lesbians are allowed to have their own opinions? People like him amuse me. I wonder what his position was on the Balkans in the early 90s where random bombing of Serbia stopped a genocide (which led to wonderful people doing wonderful things). I'd be curious to know his position on Darfur. Oh well. |
Ever get on a high horse about King or Gandhi being a pacifist? |
i do, yeah |
likewise.
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www.myspace.com/blackarmyfaction
www.myspace.com/xjewxfudgex
www.myspace.com/xtwocabinsx
You got an ego 50 fanzines wide.
Do you want to kill your idols? Well, do step right on up and try!
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Casper
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Joined: Nov. 2007
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Also, DADT doesn't get repealed for another 60 days and still has to get formal approval from the top military folks that they are "prepared." In the mean time, you can still get kicked out for that shit.
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whoaman
die, die, die
Joined: Mar. 2008
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my sister brought up an interesting point about this that might change my semi-sarcastically negative perspective on this. if openly gay people can be soldiers, then the issue of spousal benefits gets brought up, which might make the path to legalized gay marriage a little easier. i could be wrong.
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www.myspace.com/blackarmyfaction
www.myspace.com/xjewxfudgex
www.myspace.com/xtwocabinsx
You got an ego 50 fanzines wide.
Do you want to kill your idols? Well, do step right on up and try!
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Matt the Knife
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Joined: May 2004
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I wasn't saying don't ask don't tell shouldn't be repealed. I was trying to defend a friend's position. If gay people wanna go into the military, bully for them. I also think it is a little contrary to reason for gays to fight for the right to put their lives in harms way for a country that, for the most part, wishes they didn't exist.
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shameless self promotion:
www.myspace.com/matthewlandismusic
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Matt the Knife
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Joined: May 2004
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| Quote (bakunin @ Dec. 21 2010,04:22) | | Quote (Matt the Knife @ Dec. 20 2010,23:26) | | Quote (Freshmaker @ Dec. 20 2010,22:05) |
So...this guy doesn't believe that gays/lesbians are allowed to have their own opinions? People like him amuse me. I wonder what his position was on the Balkans in the early 90s where random bombing of Serbia stopped a genocide (which led to wonderful people doing wonderful things). I'd be curious to know his position on Darfur. Oh well. |
Ever get on a high horse about King or Gandhi being a pacifist? |
i do, yeah |
Yeah, I'd imagine you would. Somehow I don't think Doug ever had though.
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shameless self promotion:
www.myspace.com/matthewlandismusic
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Matt the Knife
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Joined: May 2004
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| Quote (violentgrind @ Dec. 21 2010,06:16) | matt - while i do think it would have been nice to still have the excuse of being gay to get out of military service in case of a draft, the point is that having the same civil rights includes the rights you may not agree with as well, such as killing brown people in some faraway hole. its not like the people fighting for the repeal of DADT aren't the same people fighting for the legalization of gay marriage.
not all gays are pacifists and some want to join the military for any number of reasons, and they should have that right as long as straight people do as well. they also should have the right to receive all the benefits the military offers them (most of which they'll try to fuck you over about whether you are gay or straight or whatever, but thats a different topic...), instead of being dishonorably discharged and forced to pay back tens of thousands of dollars when their secret gets out.
allowing gays in the military is an important part of recognizing them as equal members of society, and can help lead to other legal measures and a general acceptance by society at large, or whatever part left of it that still doesn't agree. it was probably just as important when black soldiers were allowed to be integrated with white soldiers. in fact here's an article that talks about just that: http://www.history.army.mil/books/integration/iaf-fm.htm (i've only gotten as far as the foreword so far, but it seems to be making the same points) |
Yr absolutely right about the integration point. The military integrated units long before public schools or anywhere else did. It's because they couldn't have unit cohesion if black soldiers only felt beholden to other black soldiers and white soldiers only felt beholden to other white soldiers.
But that's not CA's point either. CA's point is two-fold: the military is a fundamental evil institution and NO ONE should be a part of it, so please by all means, don't allow queers to join. And secondly, why should gay soldiers, closeted or otherwise fight for a government until that government affords them truly equal protection under the law. Again, you can argue the merits of incrementalism vs. drastic change, or reformism vs. revolution (which ultimately is what everyone's getting hung up on), but I don't know that it makes CA's criticisms (why should gays fight & die when they don't have equal rights now/the military itself operates as a fundamental, structural instrument in various types of oppression) any less valid.
The military is already disproportionately populated by various minorities: the working and rural poor, immigrants, African-Americans seeking to escape urban poverty, non-recidivistic offenders frozen out of the job market, might as well add gays to the list. It's why you hear a decent amount of radicals calling for a re-institution of the draft. Maybe if rich white kids & their parents had to face the possibility of their kid coming home with PTSD or a traumatic brain injury, the US government would be a little more deliberate and less knee jerk when invading another country.
No matter how you paint it or how much reformist, liberal history sugar coats the role of the military in bringing about social integration the fact of the matter is that the military is no longer a tool for national defense. It is not, primarily, run by military men making military decisions and the politics of the military have not become a politics of last resort or moral rectitude and duty. And it's not the fault of the soldiers either. Or even most of the officers (until you start getting into the political appointments of officers above the infantry/XO level). It's the fault of the civilians (businessmen, politicians, & lobbyists) involved in the military and the uncontrollable monster that is the military-industrial complex. And it's not like that's a radical idea either. That was Republican president and former general and commanding officer over the united Allied Forces during World War II, Dwight D. Eisenhower.
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shameless self promotion:
www.myspace.com/matthewlandismusic
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Matt the Knife
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Joined: May 2004
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| Quote (whoaman @ Dec. 21 2010,10:07) | | my sister brought up an interesting point about this that might change my semi-sarcastically negative perspective on this. if openly gay people can be soldiers, then the issue of spousal benefits gets brought up, which might make the path to legalized gay marriage a little easier. i could be wrong. |
It is an interesting point. But white people didn't have to go prove they were willing to fight and die in the military before they were afforded those same sorts of rights. There are also plenty of things that exist for military personnel that don't exist for the general population. Like a universal single payer health care system. And government subsidized guaranteed retirement packages.
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shameless self promotion:
www.myspace.com/matthewlandismusic
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Freshmaker
Defcon 2.8
Joined: Dec. 2006
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| Quote (Matt the Knife @ Dec. 20 2010,23:26) | | Quote (Freshmaker @ Dec. 20 2010,22:05) |
So...this guy doesn't believe that gays/lesbians are allowed to have their own opinions? People like him amuse me. I wonder what his position was on the Balkans in the early 90s where random bombing of Serbia stopped a genocide (which led to wonderful people doing wonderful things). I'd be curious to know his position on Darfur. Oh well. |
Pacifists are pacifists are pacifists. There were pacifists who protested World War II. People criticized Gandhi for going on hunger strikes to discipline his own followers into not using violence. Blacks lambasted King for vehemently disapproving of armed rebellion and then the left turned on him when he opposed direct/confrontational action against Vietnam. Ever get on a high horse about King or Gandhi being a pacifist? |
After a bit of research on the subject, it turns out that Ghandi believed that opposing Hitler was possibly a just position but he could still not support it. His advice to Jews was to take the moral high ground and just die. So...fuck Ghandi.
| Quote | | I'm not trying to put CA on that level. But I'm also not going to sit here while you imply that his outlook on this is anything less than 100% principled. I am not a pacifist, but if you genuinely are a queer pacifist, it seems entirely consistent and an efficacious strategy to oppose the repeal of "don't ask don't tell". If yr a principled queer pacifist, the fewer queers killing brown people for the State, the happier you are. |
He, like most US citizens in the last 50 years, has never been forced to make a tough decision where you put yourself at risk. He isn't living in Soviet Russia, Cuba, China, Burma, Iran or dozens of countries where political dissent will get you jailed or killed. He's not living in Uganda or Afghanistan where being gay is a crime punishable by death.
What choice would he make if he could command troops to kill Janjiweed marauders killing and raping in Darfur. Would be take Ghandi's stance and tell them to just die because war is wrong? Or would he allow them to fight back? Would he support foreign troops coming in as peacekeepers. What would he have done if he was in the streets of Kigali sixteen years ago when people were walking around with machetes hacking up people based on ethnicity?
His pacifism is a luxury and his imposing it on everyone else is patronizing and privleged. And it is a position in a complete vacuum, not acknowledging that there might be a need for armed forces. Would he support an all gay platoon overthrowing the military junta in Burma?
He's applying his principals to everyone of his orientation and denying them, not even denigrating, their moral choice. That's what bugs me about him.
| Quote | What's more, it's not all that different than black activists who supported dodging the draft. What's truly hypocritical is pretending that gay have the right to go kill for the same government that refuses to grant them equal protection under the law or afford the same civil rights as straight folks. By all means, be as out of the closet and gay as you want as long as yr willing to kick in doors to huts in Waziristan then of course it's yr legally protected right to be a fag and be proud, but God forbid you walk into a courtroom and be a fag and demand to be married...that wasn't what we intended when we started giving a shit about granting you rights. Queer killing Talbian=civil rights issue
Queer demanding the right to marry or to transfer health insurance to their partner=threat to American values.
Really Doug, where is the greater depth of hypocrisy/lack of principle?
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Thanks to many people other than him, you can do that in 10% of the states.
And remember that the Taliban punishes gays by toppling a wall on them. Would he fight for the rights of his own kind? As much of a waste these two wars have been, the Taliban are, in my opinion, evil. They practice and preach nearly everything that makes me crings. And in Iraq, the Kurds are perfectly happy with the results of the invasion.
| Quote | | EDIT: Also Doug, it seems yr big issues with CA's thing is that it is doggedly anti-reformist. Which is spot on, CA's a revolutionary. I tend to be sympathetic with yr outlook. Yeah, I'm totally okay with people killing other people to protect themselves from genocide. And if I believed that the international community didn't have ulterior motives (ie, the free market structural readjustment policies forcibly instituted in Balkan states that accepted UN peacekeeping forces) then I might be even more sympathetic. But that isn't the issue here. It's a thoroughly fallacious and disingenuous logical move to imply that by insisting on a revolutionary/anti-reformist pacifist stance and by refusing to submit, militarily or otherwise to a State system which does not great you basic civil rights and encourages a culture of violence against the marginalized group you are a member of is somehow the same thing as being an appeaser when it comes to genocide. If you look at the UN conventions on genocide, you could make an argument that the systematic attempt to marginalize, suppress, and eradicate gay culture which has been employed by hetero US society and the US government borders on an ACT of genocide in and of itself. I know that's a pretty radical opinion, but if you read what Lemke intended those genocide accords to be (accords to protect the rights and perpetuate the existence of threatened minorities and marginalized subgroups), gays have a very legitimate bitch. |
I don't think what gays have gone through in this country could be construed as genocide. I'm too tired to go point by point but communists (were they a culture) would have a bigger beef.
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"I know I was born and I know that I'll die. The in between is mine" - Eddie Vedder (yeah...that's right...eddie vedder)
"And who the fuck is Sam Gursky?" - Big Jon from Chicago
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Justafriend
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warn-1.gif
Joined: May 2002
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| Quote (Freshmaker @ Dec. 21 2010,23:10) | | I don't think what gays have gone through in this country could be construed as genocide. I'm too tired to go point by point but communists (were they a culture) would have a bigger beef. |
- You could start with the Government outright ignoring the AIDS epidemic. It's not text book geonocide, but in this case, silence = death
- This number is very disputed, but gays are disproportionatley represented among suicide victims. Again. this is not text book geonocide, but when members of our Government speak out against the morality of gays, envoking religion and the limitation of their rights, the theory seems pretty intuitive. Not to mention the suprression of gays by our very own citizens with NO protection from the law.
I think I need to hear you go point by point..
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newspeak lexicon - I am downright amazed at what I can destroy with just a hammer.
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violentgrind
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Joined: Dec. 2002
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this country has a history of discriminating against every single group who aren't rich white males. and every single group has fought for equal rights and acceptance instead of just saying "they dont like us, so lets revolt!" which seems to be matt's preferred course of action here
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NEW SITE!!!
www.konstphoto.com
flickr.com/photos/violentgrind
"Between pushing the envelope alittle too far and constantly having a prudent stick up your ass, i'm choosing the former have fun with the latter."
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alyssssa!
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Joined: Jan. 2008
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| Quote (Justafriend @ Dec. 22 2010,07:27) | | Quote (Freshmaker @ Dec. 21 2010,23:10) | | I don't think what gays have gone through in this country could be construed as genocide. I'm too tired to go point by point but communists (were they a culture) would have a bigger beef. |
- You could start with the Government outright ignoring the AIDS epidemic. It's not text book geonocide, but in this case, silence = death
- This number is very disputed, but gays are disproportionatley represented among suicide victims. Again. this is not text book geonocide, but when members of our Government speak out against the morality of gays, envoking religion and the limitation of their rights, the theory seems pretty intuitive. Not to mention the suprression of gays by our very own citizens with NO protection from the law.
I think I need to hear you go point by point.. |
I use to do some acting years agooooo and one of the plays I was in was the Laramie Project where we did extensive research of what exactly are the rights we have in this country. One dealt with how attacking someone based on their sexual orientation wasnt considered a hate crime.
- Just to add, I did a quick look on wiki and shockingly this bill was just passed in 2009. Now Im not agreeing that hate crimes make everything better, but it does serve more justice to those who were attacked. My point being that it certainly hasnt helped in the past with homophobic attackers knowing what they're doing isn't going to get them in trouble, because the state they're in doesnt factor in the safety and rights of being gay.| Quote |
Matthew Shepard Act,
Main article: Matthew Shepard Act
On October 28, 2009 President Obama, signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act (attached to the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010), which expanded existing United States federal hate crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim's actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability, and which dropped the prerequisite that the victim be engaging in a federally protected activity. |
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Nicola
Fear Nothing; Love Everything
Joined: April 2007
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| Quote (violentgrind @ Dec. 22 2010,11:16) | | ...every single group has fought for equal rights and acceptance instead of just saying "they dont like us, so lets revolt!" which seems to be matt's preferred course of action here |
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Item 18: Our lack of popularity in high school has led us to think and thinking has lead us to this. No war is waged here: only a strain, a virus, a toxoid, a Rozz-Toxoid. The emergent complex asks for just twenty years of your time. Now stand and sing....
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VASS
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Joined: April 2002
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It doesn't get tired.
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DAAVVIID BIILLMMAAASSS.... YEAH YEAH YEAH!
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