Freshmaker
Defcon 2.8
Joined: Dec. 2006
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| Quote (Matt the Knife @ Dec. 20 2010,23:26) | | Quote (Freshmaker @ Dec. 20 2010,22:05) |
So...this guy doesn't believe that gays/lesbians are allowed to have their own opinions? People like him amuse me. I wonder what his position was on the Balkans in the early 90s where random bombing of Serbia stopped a genocide (which led to wonderful people doing wonderful things). I'd be curious to know his position on Darfur. Oh well. |
Pacifists are pacifists are pacifists. There were pacifists who protested World War II. People criticized Gandhi for going on hunger strikes to discipline his own followers into not using violence. Blacks lambasted King for vehemently disapproving of armed rebellion and then the left turned on him when he opposed direct/confrontational action against Vietnam. Ever get on a high horse about King or Gandhi being a pacifist? |
After a bit of research on the subject, it turns out that Ghandi believed that opposing Hitler was possibly a just position but he could still not support it. His advice to Jews was to take the moral high ground and just die. So...fuck Ghandi.
| Quote | | I'm not trying to put CA on that level. But I'm also not going to sit here while you imply that his outlook on this is anything less than 100% principled. I am not a pacifist, but if you genuinely are a queer pacifist, it seems entirely consistent and an efficacious strategy to oppose the repeal of "don't ask don't tell". If yr a principled queer pacifist, the fewer queers killing brown people for the State, the happier you are. |
He, like most US citizens in the last 50 years, has never been forced to make a tough decision where you put yourself at risk. He isn't living in Soviet Russia, Cuba, China, Burma, Iran or dozens of countries where political dissent will get you jailed or killed. He's not living in Uganda or Afghanistan where being gay is a crime punishable by death.
What choice would he make if he could command troops to kill Janjiweed marauders killing and raping in Darfur. Would be take Ghandi's stance and tell them to just die because war is wrong? Or would he allow them to fight back? Would he support foreign troops coming in as peacekeepers. What would he have done if he was in the streets of Kigali sixteen years ago when people were walking around with machetes hacking up people based on ethnicity?
His pacifism is a luxury and his imposing it on everyone else is patronizing and privleged. And it is a position in a complete vacuum, not acknowledging that there might be a need for armed forces. Would he support an all gay platoon overthrowing the military junta in Burma?
He's applying his principals to everyone of his orientation and denying them, not even denigrating, their moral choice. That's what bugs me about him.
| Quote | What's more, it's not all that different than black activists who supported dodging the draft. What's truly hypocritical is pretending that gay have the right to go kill for the same government that refuses to grant them equal protection under the law or afford the same civil rights as straight folks. By all means, be as out of the closet and gay as you want as long as yr willing to kick in doors to huts in Waziristan then of course it's yr legally protected right to be a fag and be proud, but God forbid you walk into a courtroom and be a fag and demand to be married...that wasn't what we intended when we started giving a shit about granting you rights. Queer killing Talbian=civil rights issue
Queer demanding the right to marry or to transfer health insurance to their partner=threat to American values.
Really Doug, where is the greater depth of hypocrisy/lack of principle?
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Thanks to many people other than him, you can do that in 10% of the states.
And remember that the Taliban punishes gays by toppling a wall on them. Would he fight for the rights of his own kind? As much of a waste these two wars have been, the Taliban are, in my opinion, evil. They practice and preach nearly everything that makes me crings. And in Iraq, the Kurds are perfectly happy with the results of the invasion.
| Quote | | EDIT: Also Doug, it seems yr big issues with CA's thing is that it is doggedly anti-reformist. Which is spot on, CA's a revolutionary. I tend to be sympathetic with yr outlook. Yeah, I'm totally okay with people killing other people to protect themselves from genocide. And if I believed that the international community didn't have ulterior motives (ie, the free market structural readjustment policies forcibly instituted in Balkan states that accepted UN peacekeeping forces) then I might be even more sympathetic. But that isn't the issue here. It's a thoroughly fallacious and disingenuous logical move to imply that by insisting on a revolutionary/anti-reformist pacifist stance and by refusing to submit, militarily or otherwise to a State system which does not great you basic civil rights and encourages a culture of violence against the marginalized group you are a member of is somehow the same thing as being an appeaser when it comes to genocide. If you look at the UN conventions on genocide, you could make an argument that the systematic attempt to marginalize, suppress, and eradicate gay culture which has been employed by hetero US society and the US government borders on an ACT of genocide in and of itself. I know that's a pretty radical opinion, but if you read what Lemke intended those genocide accords to be (accords to protect the rights and perpetuate the existence of threatened minorities and marginalized subgroups), gays have a very legitimate bitch. |
I don't think what gays have gone through in this country could be construed as genocide. I'm too tired to go point by point but communists (were they a culture) would have a bigger beef.
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"I know I was born and I know that I'll die. The in between is mine" - Eddie Vedder (yeah...that's right...eddie vedder)
"And who the fuck is Sam Gursky?" - Big Jon from Chicago
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Inferno Board » Inferno » World/Inferno F.S. » R.I.P Dont ask dont tell
