iB::Topic::it ain't sexism

Kyla!
hooligan

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http://bastantealready.blogspot.com/2008/08/it-aint-sexism-its-punk-rock.html
great discussion in comments, too.

enlightened thoughts anyone?

For my own life experience, I have been groped about 6,437 times whilst stagediving, but have never felt more free and liberated to elbow the asshole(s) in th fucking face then in a mosh pit. As the article sort of seems to conclude, punkrock may not challenge men in their privilege, but it does offer an avenue for women to revolt against their sexism.

ps I'll have my very special pissed off feminist punk zine with me at the NJ show tonight and in NY this weekend. $2 please

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joy beats oppression. adventure as a form of protest!

posted on Aug. 22 2008,8:10
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LastofthePirates
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I do think groping is a problem.
For instance: I was at a HIM gig about 3 years ago, people were stage diving and what not and alot of the girls were wearing very little (That is an observation on my part and not an excuse for this guys actions). Some girl was on top of the crowd, she was wearing a bra with nothing ontop, and as i looked up at her to see where she was going i see this hand shoot up. In what looked like slow motion the guy flicked open her bra and tits flopped around everywhere.

Now i've often thought about this and at first i gave the guy props for his skills. However i think i'd proberly punch someone if they did it again while i was at a show now or at least hold the guy up while somone whaled on him.

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"This is my stabbing knife, you know what to do"

posted on Aug. 22 2008,10:32
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Kyla!
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Quote (LastofthePirates @ Aug. 22 2008,10:32)

Now i've often thought about this and at first i gave the guy props for his skills. However i think i'd proberly punch someone if they did it again

well there ya go folks! manly manliness manning the manday again!

or: "the patriarchy is always good zine fodder part II"

No, no, on second thought I'll bite. Let's play Deconstruct!

Why is this fucked up?

Well, what we have here is a simultaneous re-establishment of dominant patriarchal culture demonstrating the insecurity of Exhibit A Male Poster who needs to prove he lives up to the impossible standards of manhood set before him by expressing both his virility and his strength, AND artificially temper these with the paradoxical standard of patronizing chivalry and guardianship of the lesser sex(es). The result: one giant pinhead whose lack of respect for himself has led to an overzealous and just plain stupid conformity to societal standards based on the oppression of other human beings; in this one example, a punkrock girl trying to shout fuck off to the societal standards she's been forced to conform to, namely the "she asked for it" structural support for sexualized violence and the "sit tight on the sidelines" expectation of girls in our culture. In conclusion, Wish were you were in America so I could elbow the cartilage out of your nose baby! <3<3<3

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joy beats oppression. adventure as a form of protest!

posted on Aug. 22 2008,10:41
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Matt the Knife
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I know this totally hypocritical of me to say, but discussing political theory on the Inferno board is just about pointless. I think most of us here agree sexism is not good. We all have varying opinions on how to best combat. Some people are more enlightened and sensitive to the nuances of the argument and other people just have their own knee-jerk reactions. I for one, appreciate both perspectives because they both come from a good place.

Unfortunately, there's nothing more dangerous then a good person with misplaced intentions. I wish it were easier to educate people as to these nuanced responses to the problem of sexism, but social coding makes it absurdly difficult. I wish everyone understood that instances of abuse or exploitation are emotional hot button issues, and some of those emotional responses won't always be the best responses. But there's a common ground here obscured by what I see, quite frankly, the tone that often gets cast in these debates. By everyone. Myself included. It'd be alot easier to hammer out cohesive, community based responses to issues like this if the piranhas in this tank didn't take to attacking each other when discussions of this nature opened up.

Or we could just all agree that discussing politics or political theory or anything of that ilk, is at this point, a noble but hopeless endeavor on the Inferno board.

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You can't live in the past
while your hope's being kicked around
So, let's sink nostalgia like a polar ice shelf
& grab the present by the throat
at least until
we get bored and sell out.

posted on Aug. 22 2008,10:51
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Kyla!
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Quote (Matt the Knife @ Aug. 22 2008,10:51)

I know this totally hypocritical of me to say, but discussing political theory on the Inferno board is just about pointless.

no man, i obviously get off on it

and for seriously, lastofthepirates comment wasn't about findin 'common ground'... boneheads are boneheads and ain't no nuance about it.

also, as someone who loves this scene till the day i die but for whom it';s caused untold amounts of sexist grief i have a certain investment in bringing these things to the forefront, calling em out and talking about them, and i don't appreciate attempts to silence that or marginalize it to abstract "political theory". but whatever, do what you want.

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joy beats oppression. adventure as a form of protest!

posted on Aug. 22 2008,10:56
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barrow
swagger like us

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Quote (Kyla! @ Aug. 22 2008,8:10)

I have been groped about 6,437 times whilst stagediving

Damn. Who knew invisiosuit attends that many shows!

posted on Aug. 22 2008,11:08
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Will
I'm Bender, baby! Please insert liquor!

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Quote (Kyla! @ Aug. 22 2008,10:41)

Quote (LastofthePirates @ Aug. 22 2008,10:32)

Now i've often thought about this and at first i gave the guy props for his skills. However i think i'd proberly punch someone if they did it again

well there ya go folks! manly manliness manning the manday again!

so youll criticize him for at one time in his life not seeing anything wrong with the situation, and then when he openly states that he has learned better, and says(a bit extremely, but still) that he would put a stop to the same kind of actions if he saw them again, you give him more shit?

now, i totally love everything you do as far as activism goes. i wish i could put forth the effort to do 1/10 of the stuff you put your life towards. however, right here i think you were more looking to jump on someone than anything else.

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posted on Aug. 22 2008,11:22
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Freshmaker
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Quote

All this has prompted a curiousness about the experience of women in other subcultures, particularly the "hippies" of the mid to late 60's. All that "free love" and fucking The Man and what not. How "liberated" were the female love children?

The hippies were as sexist as the guys on "Mad Men". The whatever wave feminist movement started because guys in the SDS, etc, especially the leaders, used the women in the movement for the free love and to get them coffee. There weren't any women in the Chicago Seven. On the other hand, they were Charles Manson's best foot soldiers.

[edit] I'm laughing at the prospect of the author applying the same analysis to some other subcultures like ....oh...I don't know...the Hell's Angels.

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posted on Aug. 22 2008,11:25
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Felix
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Sexism in punk rock and "countercultures" in general presents a serious problem, and not one that is easy to diagnose or combat.

A few things came to mind reading that blog. It might be because I'm not a girl and I haven't been personally groped, but I don't feel like I've ever seen groping going on at punk shows. Respecting (to such a degree that it's possible in a moshing/stagediving situation) the personal space of others it seems to me is nearly as integral part of concert etiquette as picking somebody up if they fall down.

As far as female leads in bands, I don't think you can blame men per se for the fact that women aren't taking a stronger role in the scene. If I was a chick, I'd still be singing punk rock songs, or so I'd like to think. As an aside I'm really glad to see Nico singing in SFH right now (nevermind the fact they're one of my favorite rising bands at the moment) because it seems like a missing element of crack rock steady's stated manifesto.

Just my $0.02.

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"I only play power chords to piss you off."

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posted on Aug. 22 2008,11:30
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Justafriend
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[quote=Matt the Knife,Aug. 22 2008,10:51][/quote]

Quote

I know this totally hypocritical of me to say, but discussing political theory on the Inferno board

I disagree.. though certain peeps tend to ruin it for others.. but every once in a while a good debate springs some interesting perspectives.. just sayin..

at the topic at hand..

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Well, what we have here is a simultaneous re-establishment of dominant patriarchal culture demonstrating the insecurity of Exhibit A Male Poster who needs to prove he lives up to the impossible standards of manhood set before him by expressing both his virility and his strength, AND artificially temper these with the paradoxical standard of patronizing chivalry and guardianship of the lesser sex(es).

I can only speak for myself.. (though I am sure some will agree with certain aspects of this).

If i ever saw any one of my friends who were in a situation where they may be hurt or abused, I would try best to do something to stop it. With that said, if I saw someone (like Kyla) crowd surfing, and someone tries to take advantage of her, I would try and stop it. It has nothing to do with thinking you are incapable of defending yourself.. it has to do with your current state of vulnerablity.. and your ability to defend yourself at the moment.. Before you scream I am a typical A male .. hear me out..

There are many elements of trust to crowd surfing, one is that you are trusting others to catch you, and the other is trusting that in a vulnerable state, no one would take advantage of you, whether they decide to hit you, or grab you in a place that is inappropiate.. it's almost a like a moral code of honor... and if that code is broken, its up to the community at hand to try and enforce it.

I have no doubt that others would intervene.. whether it would be me Vass, Ratt, Kit, Em .. and etc..

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posted on Aug. 22 2008,11:35
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Justafriend
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BTW.. I dug the blog..

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newspeak lexicon - I am downright amazed at what I can destroy with just a hammer.

posted on Aug. 22 2008,11:38
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Kyla!
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Quote (Justafriend @ Aug. 22 2008,11:35)

There are many elements of trust to crowd surfing, one is that you are trusting others to catch you, and the other is trusting that in a vulnerable state, no one would take advantage of you, whether they decide to hit you, or grab you in a place that is inappropiate.. it's almost a like a moral code of honor... and if that code is broken, its up to the community at hand to try and enforce it.

right on, agreed. i think there is a fundamental difference between your motives and analysis for defending a crowdsurfer, versus the earlier post about both being excited at seeing tits and then patronizingly punishing the person who did what you secretly wanted to do.

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joy beats oppression. adventure as a form of protest!

posted on Aug. 22 2008,12:00
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controlfreak
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Quote (Kyla! @ Aug. 22 2008,12:00)

Quote (Justafriend @ Aug. 22 2008,11:35)

he made no mention of being excited about seeing tits. to be honest, from reading his post i didn't get the impression that he was getting his jollies from it at all - just that he had an initial admiration for the man's deft fingers which upon reflection turned into distaste for his motives and attitude.

posted on Aug. 22 2008,12:32
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Justafriend
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As far as females in punk rock.. hmmm..

th reason female punk artists are far more commercilaized is their scarcity.. in any busniess. whether it be oil, sports, tv, marketing and etc.. a rare product is highly sought out. We could name a dozen male driven punk/rock acts before we could name a female.. and even then.. only a fraction of them can attract an audience.. and once they do.. its pretty hard as a musician not to give in. and if you are a female.. lets be frank.. its alot harder to stay as a relevant artist and attract new fans past a certain age.. you are far mor inclined to cash in on any sucess you may have,.

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newspeak lexicon - I am downright amazed at what I can destroy with just a hammer.

posted on Aug. 22 2008,12:47
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Radar
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Quote (Matt the Knife @ Aug. 22 2008,10:51)

[...]boneheads are boneheads and ain't no nuance about it.[...]

also, as someone who loves this scene till the day i die but for whom it';s caused untold amounts of sexist grief i have a certain investment in bringing these things to the forefront, calling em out and talking about them, and i don't appreciate attempts to silence that or marginalize it to abstract "political theory". [...]

so fuckin true. all this marginalizing of sexism (or antisemitism, xenophobia or whatever makes me sick)

posted on Aug. 22 2008,1:25
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The Igneous Faction
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Quote

BIL challenged me to name one punk rock female group or even female-fronted punk rock group that hadn't been sexualized and commercialized.
I couldn't do it.

Not to pull some punk rock elitism blah blah blah BUT:

In the past year, our house alone has had... at least five punk/hardcore bands play with at least a female singer (though I wonder why she focuses on the singer... we've had bands play where girls played guitar and bass etc...). While the ratio is obviously skewed heavily to the male side and it is indicative of problems in punk rock, I don't think it's true that if you are the singer of a punk band and are a woman your band will be sexualized and commercialized for it. Not every band is The Distillers.

Shitty behavior exists in all communities or whatever you call them. I defy anyone to point to a utopia without racism, sexism, homophobia, etc...

One day maybe things will have progressed to that point. But then I suppose the point of this post was to point out that punk rock isn't a utopia.

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DEATH OBSESSED since Dec. 08 2002,10:55

posted on Aug. 22 2008,1:30
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roboticvampire
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This statement:
"I think of the fact that all but the strongest and bravest of girls are forced to stay away from the front of the stage due to the violence of the mosh pit."
didn't strike me as accurate as some of the other things discussed in the post, but I'm willing to assume that's just due to growing up in different areas. Seattle area punk shows would always have two or three rows of girls pressed up against the stage in front of the pit, so at least in my experience the image of women afraid to fully experience a show the way men do by hiding in the back doesn't hold up. The fun thing about the way I remember the front of the stage is that it opens up another example of sexism at punk shows that I don't think the blog mentioned (I'm still groggy from, uh, stuff, so excuse any forgetfulness and lack of eloquence). Some of the girls at the front were accompanied by their boyfriends who took it upon themselves to carve out with stern looks and quick elbows the largest personal space bubble for the two of them in the most sought after floor space in the venue. Someone in the pit would get pushed into the guy, he'd bump into his girlfriend, and take that transfer of momentum as reason enough to pick a fight with whichever scrawny kid who fell into him while he's standing at the edge of the pit. Granted, these guys could just be trying to pick fights, but it always felt to me like they had built it up in their minds that their girlfriends needed that level of protection from horrors of people hopping around in a circle. So, after that long winded anecdote, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the popular delusion of punk rock being free of sexism actually encourages guys to go beyond what is necessary to make sure that the girls present have a harassment free time, reflecting a belief that girls can't take care of themselves and possibly with less than selfless additional motives in mind too. Maybe.

That comment on the reaction of the punk rock "community" to the Brody Dalle/Tim Armstrong split is pretty much what happened in my group of punk rockin friends too. I can't figure out if loyalty was determined by a "bros before hoes" mentality, or just based on which band was liked more, but looking back it was really fucking stupid.

posted on Aug. 22 2008,3:10
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The Igneous Faction
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Brody Dalle and Tim Armstrong have little if anything to do with punk rock.

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DEATH OBSESSED since Dec. 08 2002,10:55

posted on Aug. 22 2008,3:18
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don14120
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Quote (The Igneous Faction @ Aug. 22 2008,6:18)

Brody Dalle and Tim Armstrong have little if anything to do with punk rock.

This is a ridiculous statement.

See: Operation Ivy

posted on Aug. 22 2008,3:28
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NickNJ
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Oh hey look, every response has been from a male (and now another one from this male who talks too much already). No, of course sexism doesn't exist in communities like these!

Quote

Shitty behavior exists in all communities or whatever you call them. I defy anyone to point to a utopia without racism, sexism, homophobia, etc...

Who's asking for a utopia? It's something that needs to be combated regardless of it that combat will ever alleviate it from a sector of society entirely or not. I have still, STILL yet to meet a single male ever in my entire life that doesn't exude some form of sexist behavior in their daily lives. That includes, me, you and everyone we know. You don't think that's a problem worth addressing? Hell, the entire reason i have been trying to turn a new leaf and taken up a less-combative way of having discussions is because of a debate i had with a roommate of yours that addressed these very issues.

I have been drawn to punk rock or punk rock related subcultures my entire adolescence because of how amazing they are at addressing and recognizing real world issues. The sad truth, however, is that when it comes to sexism, we're all (by "all" i mean all the males of this community like you and i jay) so fucking in the dark about it that it sometimes blows my mind. So i'll ask you, both as a friend and a fellow member of this community, to not be surprised by the fact that people wish to address issues that so strongly effect them and yet so many of their community members are ignorant of, and to also not continue to pick apart unimportant semantics as though a slight fallacy in the reasoning somehow disassembles the entire structure of the point in the first place. It's quite frankly insulting.

Quote

I know this totally hypocritical of me to say, but discussing political theory on the Inferno board is just about pointless. I think most of us here agree sexism is not good.

Two parts of this i wish address:

The first is that yes, a lot of times discussions on here are not constructive. At all. And i contribute a large part of that myself. However, there's no reason that cannot occur and i personally am doing my best to keep things discussion-oriented. I think if an asshole as big me can make an attempt at being more civil, it's not all that unreasonable to expect it of others on here.

The second part i want to address is that, yeah, we might all agree that sexism "not good," but i don't think for a minute that all of the males here (yes that means me too) are really capable of recognizing the many different faces it takes on, nor self-aware enough to realize when they invoke sexist actions.

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[QUOTE]Dude, that fire was touching the ceiling. It was huge. I was fairly certain the house was going up. I suppose that is what we get for playing around with paint thinner.[/QUOTE]

posted on Aug. 22 2008,4:43
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The_Terminator Online

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One of the biggest regrets in my life is backing down and cowering in fear when confronted with Sexism in the scene, It makes me want to vomit, how much of an outright apologist I was.

Speaking of sexism and scenes, It also gets me mad when people like to label Hardcore as a boys club (which some scenes are, But I try to avoid those) even when I point out that there are plenty of female Hardcore bands (though, I do wish there was more), I usually get the "oh, but this music is to angry/brutal/whatever for girls" response. thats just reinforcing the stereotype that women have to be excluded because they're supposed to be the weaker sex. I hate it when people try to impose those standards on Punk.

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They helieve in the path of righteousness, paved with the lives of six million souls, I believe that one day all the stars in the sky will Explode...

posted on Aug. 22 2008,4:49
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Rica Suave
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From Matt the Knife:

I think everyone here knows me well enough to know that I don't think Kyla's point was "abstract" or pointless. Since when have I ever given anyone the impression that I thought theory was "abstract". Praxis without theory is empty and theory without praxis is useless.

Kyla- His post, yr right, wasn't nuanced and it was boneheaded. My point in my post was that very often there's an intense desire on the part of people in this scene to find a way to contribute to discourse or to action around these issues that is stifled because instead of being constructively explained to what exactly is wrong with their proposition or reactions, they're called boneheads and dismissed and generally lambasted. There's alot of really great, constructive criticism that occurs in this scene and alot of really unconstructive snarkiness too. I'm NOT saying you are snarky. I just wanted to bring the point up that alot of people on here, especially men, like to get into pissing contests about who's less sexist then who. Which is ultimately, in itself macho bullshit. And that sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes, we need to be a little more engaging and less didactic in how we approach clearly wrong-headed or patronizing tactics and propositions.

I also never said NOT to have political discussions on the Inferno board. I was just commenting, as is my cynical fashion, that such discussions usually end up in one of three fashions: 1) jokes 2) aforementioned "i'm the least sexist male here" pissing contest 3) alot of accusation, finger pointing and didacticism and very little engagement about where these reactions are coming from.

Things like Kyla's zine and alot of the zines I've read on the issue are so valuable because they're engaging, honest, raw attempts at communication. They're not pontificating. They're confessions, explanations, analysis. I feel like that's sore lacking in alot of the discussions about topics like this that end up on this board. That was the larger point I was trying to make. I've even had discussions with you Kyla, asking for help about how to react to these situations, what yr opinion was about my own attempts/ lack of attempts to address the issue, my own failings and guilt. I just feel like some of the understanding and engagement you have so pricelessly given to me personally would serve as a great example to other people who enter into these discussions. I'm not saying yr posts here lacked any of that, I'm just making an observation.

EDIT: I'd also like to say, so far, this thread is succeeding in proving me wrong about my statement that political discussion on the board is useless.

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posted on Aug. 22 2008,5:26
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LastofthePirates
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Quote (Kyla! @ Aug. 22 2008,10:41)

Quote (LastofthePirates @ Aug. 22 2008,10:32)

Now i've often thought about this and at first i gave the guy props for his skills. However i think i'd proberly punch someone if they did it again

I like to think of myself as the repentant idiot that laughed at the stuff that went on at gigs when i was younger. I am terribly sorry if i use my strength, my will and my new found morals to protect myself and my friends.
Talk to me when you have the scars i do and tell me i'm a pig.

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"This is my stabbing knife, you know what to do"

posted on Aug. 22 2008,7:00
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oubliette
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I think it has something to do with punk attracting "outsiders" and "rejects". Some flourish in alternative social scenes and create new, positive spaces. Some use them to establish a new pecking order at which they're at the top instead of the bottom, and just repeat the same ol' bullshit.

tl;dr I've been at fratparties with a healthier and more respectful attitude towards women than this scene

posted on Aug. 22 2008,8:57
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cloth
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Quote (oubliette @ Aug. 22 2008,7:57)

tl;dr I've been at fratparties with a healthier and more respectful attitude towards women than this scene

THIS scene isn't punk, at all.

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SOH08
i will lay down my bones among the rocks and roots.

posted on Aug. 22 2008,10:18
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Freshmaker
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Quote (oubliette @ Aug. 22 2008,11:57)

I had a friend who went to Mt. Holyoke. Her and her friends went to parties at all of the surrounding schools. The biggest risk for assault was MIT. Apparently the geeks had re-ordered themselves. The outcast nerds suddenly found themselves on the top of the food chain and developed a huge sense of sexual entitlement.

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posted on Aug. 22 2008,10:30
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The Igneous Faction
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Quote (NickNJ @ Aug. 22 2008,4:43)

Oh hey look, every response has been from a male (and now another one from this male who talks too much already). No, of course sexism doesn't exist in communities like these!

Quote

Shitty behavior exists in all communities or whatever you call them. I defy anyone to point to a utopia without racism, sexism, homophobia, etc...

What a surprise, NickNJ is insulted.

Anyway, that's not what I was saying. You misinterpreted. I'm always surprised by people being surprised by sexism in punk. As if punk is this utopia where everyone's worked on their shit and things are hunky-dory.

Which isn't what Kyla was doing obviously. I was talking, I guess rhetorically or whatever to the blogger. Who was like, "shocking epiphany I've had!" It shouldn't be shocking or an epiphany. What you should have quoted of my post was:

Quote

One day maybe things will have progressed to that point. But then I suppose the point of this [read: Kyla's] post was to point out that punk rock isn't a utopia.

I also have to say that this "new you" or whatever just comes off as a condescending jerk. I prefer the in your face open combat that was your earlier posting style.

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DEATH OBSESSED since Dec. 08 2002,10:55

posted on Aug. 23 2008,1:35
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The Igneous Faction
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Quote (don14120 @ Aug. 22 2008,3:28)

Quote (The Igneous Faction @ Aug. 22 2008,6:18)

Brody Dalle and Tim Armstrong have little if anything to do with punk rock.

This is a ridiculous statement.

See: Operation Ivy

Oh yeah, and that's relevant now. Fuck no.

Rancid's a great punk band but come on.

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DEATH OBSESSED since Dec. 08 2002,10:55

posted on Aug. 23 2008,1:37
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tomz
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oh bondage up yours

posted on Aug. 23 2008,12:14
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NickNJ
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Quote (The Igneous Faction @ Aug. 23 2008,1:35)

What a surprise, NickNJ is insulted.

No. I found your demeanor condescending, just as you found mine the same. I'm not insulted, but i do think think it was insulting, yet not specifically toward me or anyone in particular.

However, that is really not here or there and just another (as stated earlier) means of having a pissing contest. I'd like to see this stay on topic, personally.

Quote

Are you claiming that by defending your friends you're somehow absolved from exhibiting sexist behavior?

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[QUOTE]Dude, that fire was touching the ceiling. It was huge. I was fairly certain the house was going up. I suppose that is what we get for playing around with paint thinner.[/QUOTE]

posted on Aug. 23 2008,1:23
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